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4-5-2-2 Hands-- opener's rebid after INT forcing response

#41 User is offline   RuflRabbit 

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Posted 2019-August-22, 09:53

View Postbarmar, on 2019-August-22, 08:10, said:

The way I've always interpreted that clause is that it means that partner bids as if you've shown 3+ clubs. For instance, if he has 2 hearts and 5 clubs, he passes or raises clubs (depending on strength) rather than taking a preference to hearts. He doesn't make a special allowance for the possibility that it may be only 2, and you don't have any system to inquire.


I'm not saying this isn't a reasonable interpretation, but what if knowing it might be only 2 changes the way you rebid with 2 hearts and exactly 4 clubs? (Whether it should or not is an interesting question, and I might run a simulation, but I think I know the answer.)
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#42 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-August-22, 14:32

View Postjohnu, on 2019-August-21, 18:25, said:

Opening 1 and rebidding hearts shows 5+ spades and 4+ hearts if you are playing a 5 card major system. Responder will not play opener to only have 4 spades and longer hearts. You will frequently end up in spades instead of NT when NT is right, and spades instead of hearts when hearts is right.

Exactly.

View Postjohnu, on 2019-August-21, 18:25, said:

When you rebid 2 after a forcing 1NT, everybody at the table should be aware (maybe not brand new players to tournament bridge, but most beginners learned 5 card majors (in US) and should have been taught to rebid 2) that 2 can possibly be bid on a doubleton. So who is being mislead?

Opponents have a right to know your agreements. How they should be communicated is regulated by the RA, but an agreement to bid a new suit at 2-level with just 2 cards should be communicated in some explicit way IMO.
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#43 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-August-22, 21:22

View Postjohnu, on 2019-August-21, 17:20, said:

You can play Kaplan interchange without playing Flannery. In that case, 1 shows 0-3 spades and 1NT shows 4+ spades. If you play 1 as 0-4 spades, then you will usually miss a 4-4 spade fit when opener has a minimum hand because neither partner is strong enough to introduce spades as a real suit.

The way I learned KI, is that 1s shows 0-4 spades. After 1s, opener bids 1n with 4 spades, otherwise, they make the bid they would have made if partner had made a 1nt forcing bid.
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#44 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2019-August-23, 19:26

View Postsmerriman, on 2019-August-18, 03:22, said:

How is making a bid that promises nothing more than 2 clubs - are both partner and opponents know this - misleading, but making a bid which promises 5 cards when you have 4 not misleading?

Thats totally ridiculous Stephen, I'm sorry and fails on every test of common sense and logic. Its a two major hand and you are bidding a worthless doubleton rather than show your two majors, purely to miselead the defence or from some misguided rigidity on bidding in bridge. If you are going to allow a doubleton bid in that case then it should be 2D :)

View Postsmerriman, on 2019-August-18, 03:22, said:

Have no issues with breaking rules when it leads to a better result, but in this case I can only think of hands where it makes things worse - all of the ones listed above. But if it works for you, great. Will happily play against it :)

I will happily play my way. You can happily play yours. However I do not like to mislead the defence to that extent :)

PS I'm not necessarily saying I would bid my 4 card major first, just that on some hands I would. I judge every individual hands on its individual merits in terms of shape, controls, points, losers etc. My second bid could easily be a pass and I only open a 5 card major in 2/1 on the assumption that a pass would be a legitimate bid in response to 1NT :) So I often pass hands and then join the auction later if I am stuck. When I said I needed my rebids worked out it includes a pass. A pass is a bid in my book :)
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#45 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2019-August-23, 23:07

View Postthepossum, on 2019-August-23, 19:26, said:

Thats totally ridiculous Stephen, I'm sorry and fails on every test of common sense and logic. Its a two major hand and you are bidding a worthless doubleton rather than show your two majors, purely to miselead the defence or from some misguided rigidity on bidding in bridge. If you are going to allow a doubleton bid in that case then it should be 2D :)


So to get things straight, if you open 1N, your partner bids 2C, you will never bid 2D without a real diamond suit? Even though partner and both opponents know that's not what 2D shows?

There's literally no difference. A 2D response to stayman does not promise a diamond suit, and a 2C response to a forcing 1N does not promise a club suit.

By opening the wrong major, you are lying to your partner, and lying to your opponents (since you seem to think that's so important), and you're going to get a bottom score almost every time (the rest, average at best). If you think the majors are so important, why make a bid that virtually guarantees you'll miss the right major fit, instead of one specifically a standard part of the forcing 1NT system?

There's no way you can actually seriously believe what you're saying.
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#46 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-August-24, 03:03

View Postsmerriman, on 2019-August-23, 23:07, said:

So to get things straight, if you open 1N, your partner bids 2C, you will never bid 2D without a real diamond suit? Even though partner and both opponents know that's not what 2D shows?

There's literally no difference. A 2D response to stayman does not promise a diamond suit, and a 2C response to a forcing 1N does not promise a club suit.

By opening the wrong major, you are lying to your partner, and lying to your opponents (since you seem to think that's so important), and you're going to get a bottom score almost every time (the rest, average at best). If you think the majors are so important, why make a bid that virtually guarantees you'll miss the right major fit, instead of one specifically a standard part of the forcing 1NT system?

There's no way you can actually seriously believe what you're saying.

Don’t feed the troll.
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#47 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2019-August-24, 04:22

View Postsmerriman, on 2019-August-23, 23:07, said:

So to get things straight, if you open 1N, your partner bids 2C, you will never bid 2D without a real diamond suit? Even though partner and both opponents know that's not what 2D shows?


we are not talking about opening 1NT and bidding Stayman. This thread is about rebids to a forcing/semi-forcing no trump with a specific 4522 hand. Stop constantly misrepresenting me and picking an unnecessary fight. I guess I should be used to people on here using all argument fallacies and diversions to try to win an unwinnable argument

Who bids Stayman after a forcing NT

I used to think you knew something about bridge but your ignorance of the game and when to use Stayman shows you up for someone who doesn't seem to know much at all
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#48 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2019-August-24, 04:23

View Postmikeh, on 2019-August-24, 03:03, said:

Don’t feed the troll.


Interesting comment from someone who observes other people's civilised discussions and just jumps in to make unnecessary and unjustified personal attacks. Please never comment on any of my posts again Hargraves, speaking of bullies and trolls
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#49 User is offline   masse24 

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Posted 2019-August-24, 05:13

View Postthepossum, on 2019-August-24, 04:22, said:

we are not talking about opening 1NT and bidding Stayman. This thread is about rebids to a forcing/semi-forcing no trump with a specific 4522 hand. Stop constantly misrepresenting me and picking an unnecessary fight. I guess I should be used to people on here using all argument fallacies and diversions to try to win an unwinnable argument

Who bids Stayman after a forcing NT

I used to think you knew something about bridge but your ignorance of the game and when to use Stayman shows you up for someone who doesn't seem to know much at all


He did not suggest to "bid Stayman after a forcing NT."

Read again what was written. It's called an analogy. Look it up if you do not know the definition. It's a valid and useful tool when making an argument.

There has been no "constantly misrepresenting" and "picking an unnecessary fight." Except by you, when you misrepresented the intent of an analogy being used literally as something you had written.
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#50 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-August-24, 07:11

View Postthepossum, on 2019-August-24, 04:23, said:

Interesting comment from someone who observes other people's civilised discussions and just jumps in to make unnecessary and unjustified personal attacks. Please never comment on any of my posts again Hargraves, speaking of bullies and trolls

Lol
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#51 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2019-August-24, 13:29

View PostHardVector, on 2019-August-22, 21:22, said:

The way I learned KI, is that 1s shows 0-4 spades. After 1s, opener bids 1n with 4 spades, otherwise, they make the bid they would have made if partner had made a 1nt forcing bid.

The way I have always played it is different, perhaps because I play a 15+ Gazzilli that has no option meaning weak hand with clubs, which in turn means (after 1 1NT) that 2 is not necessarily a diamond suit. Now it seems right after a 1 and a 0-4 1 reply that 1NT is natural (reclaiming the formerly lost 1NT) and that therefore 2 shows 4 spades. No spade fit ever missed, and you get a natural 12-14 1NT. I certainly prefer this to the way you learned.
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#52 User is offline   RuflRabbit 

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Posted 2019-August-24, 14:05

View PostfromageGB, on 2019-August-24, 13:29, said:

The way I have always played it is different, perhaps because I play a 15+ Gazzilli that has no option meaning weak hand with clubs, which in turn means (after 1 1NT) that 2 is not necessarily a diamond suit. Now it seems right after a 1 and a 0-4 1 reply that 1NT is natural (reclaiming the formerly lost 1NT) and that therefore 2 shows 4 spades. No spade fit ever missed, and you get a natural 12-14 1NT. I certainly prefer this to the way you learned.


Interesting. So what do you do with minimum unbalanced hands holding hearts and a minor?
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