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Invitational Jump Shift Resp to Heart & Merriman in interest of space

#1 User is offline   zhasbeen 

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Posted 2019-August-16, 12:00

I'll delete this if you think I should, but is loses a lot when seen all at once. I new the general rule is one diagram at a time. I do not care for the this treatment--at all. You never know if you'll be getting solid suit, a broken suit with aces outside, or something in between.
How do you like that last one?!!






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#2 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2019-August-16, 14:33

The first one is an easy 1N response, planning to rebid 2N.

The second is a perfect 3; South has a hand that accepts an invite so shouldn't pass. (How else would you bid this as North?!)

The last is obviously a 2C bid.
Feel free to send me a friend challenge of any format as often as you like. I'll always accept :)
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#3 User is offline   zhasbeen 

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Posted 2019-August-16, 18:19

View Postsmerriman, on 2019-August-16, 14:33, said:

The first one is an easy 1N response, planning to rebid 2N.

The second is a perfect 3; South has a hand that accepts an invite so shouldn't pass. (How else would you bid this as North?!)

The last is obviously a 2C bid.


I like 1NT response for both 1 and 2. For 2 I don't like the jump with broken diamond suit, outside ace, and Jx for parnter's major. For a bid that takes up so much space I believe it should suggest litte or no support for partner's major and a better suit.
For #3 a respected director said a year or so ago that it's against ACBL rults to open 2C with all the points in one, solid suit.
However, I just Googled it and there seems to be some debate as to whether there is an actual rule.

Larry Cohen says:
"I do need some aces and kings--I wouldn't open 2c with, say 10 spades to the AKQJ and no other high cards..."
One thing for sure is that a suit that good is not invitational :)
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#4 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2019-August-16, 19:42

View Postzhasbeen, on 2019-August-16, 18:19, said:

For 2 I don't like the jump with broken diamond suit, outside ace, and Jx for parnter's major.

If you bid 1NT, what are you going to bid after partner's 2? 2 and 3 show considerably weaker hands than what you have, and partner is going to pass both of them. 2N seems very misleading. By inviting with 3 straight away, you find the cold game.

For #3, 2 isn't an opening bid.. it's a GF 2/1.
Feel free to send me a friend challenge of any format as often as you like. I'll always accept :)
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#5 User is offline   zhasbeen 

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Posted 2019-August-16, 21:21

View Postsmerriman, on 2019-August-16, 19:42, said:

If you bid 1NT, what are you going to bid after partner's 2? 2 and 3 show considerably weaker hands than what you have, and partner is going to pass both of them. 2N seems very misleading. By inviting with 3 straight away, you find the cold game.

For #3, 2 isn't an opening bid.. it's a GF 2/1.


I would have no problem taking a 2S preference after 2H rebid by opener. My feeling is that the odds are we don't have a game if he can't bid again. I have a good hand for 1NT response but it's not a monster. Not all hands are going to fit so well as these 2 after 1S-3D.
That said, I could change my mind, but for now I would be more comfortable with narrower range of hand types for an invitational jump.


#3, 2 isn't an opening bid.. it's a GF 2/1.

Yes, yes, of course. I think I'll leave now...
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#6 User is offline   carmelbobc 

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Posted 2019-August-19, 15:14

Because BBO plays 2/1 game forcing and Inverted Minors, I suggest that BBO should play the Invitational Jump Shift by responder rather than the strong (Soloway) jump shift. The reason being that responder can always ensure that game or slam will be reached without first using up valuable bidding space.

An IJS shows 9-11 HCP, a decent 6+ suit, and no side 4-card major. It can be bid with or without competition, that is, over an interfering takeout double or overcall. It denies support for partner's suit – major or minor. Because opener can pass an IJS, using it often enables reaching a good part score or otherwise difficult to bid NT game.

Larry Cohen, for one, recommends playing it as does Eric Rodwell. In an interview about why he does not play Bergen Raises, Rodwell said, "...these artificial three-level jumps mean I can't make an Invitational Jump Shift, which is what I like to play."

Responder's jump shift can be played four ways: preemptive, invitational, strong, or artificial. Although popular at the club level, the preemptive jump shift seldom deters modern players and ends up giving the opponents a roadmap for declaring the hand. And, as stated above, playing 2/1 game forcing and Inverted Minors pretty much eliminates responder's need for the strong jump shift.
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#7 User is offline   zhasbeen 

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Posted 2019-August-19, 18:05

View Postcarmelbobc, on 2019-August-19, 15:14, said:

Because BBO plays 2/1 game forcing and Inverted Minors, I suggest that BBO should play the Invitational Jump Shift by responder rather than the strong (Soloway) jump shift. The reason being that responder can always ensure that game or slam will be reached without first using up valuable bidding space.

An IJS shows 9-11 HCP, a decent 6+ suit, and no side 4-card major. It can be bid with or without competition, that is, over an interfering takeout double or overcall. It denies support for partner's suit – major or minor. Because opener can pass an IJS, using it often enables reaching a good part score or otherwise difficult to bid NT game.

Larry Cohen, for one, recommends playing it as does Eric Rodwell. In an interview about why he does not play Bergen Raises, Rodwell said, "...these artificial three-level jumps mean I can't make an Invitational Jump Shift, which is what I like to play."

Responder's jump shift can be played four ways: preemptive, invitational, strong, or artificial. Although popular at the club level, the preemptive jump shift seldom deters modern players and ends up giving the opponents a roadmap for declaring the hand. And, as stated above, playing 2/1 game forcing and Inverted Minors pretty much eliminates responder's need for the strong jump shift.


I believe that Cohen plays it by a passed hand showing a fit for partner's major. I doubt that there are many that play it with any 9-11 hcp having a 6-card minor. Whatever the case I think that a system that the entire field is going to play, such as GIB 2/1 here, should use only the most popular conventions while keeping it as simple as possible.
One thing that I do like about the robot individuals here is requiring everyone to play the same card. With everyone playing the exact same card, with the the same robot partner and opponents, it reduces the game to card play and decision making only. This is about as a true of a test as you can get.
I try to keep in mind that "it's the same for everyone" when I become frustrated with Gib's many glitches, although it does take a lot of the fun out the game. However, over a period of many games player scoring averages will be determined by the number of errors they make.
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#8 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2019-August-19, 18:50

 zhasbeen, on 2019-August-19, 18:05, said:

I believe that Cohen plays it by a passed hand showing a fit for partner's major. I doubt that there are many that play it with any 9-11 hcp having a 6-card minor.

As I mentioned in the other thread, it's part of Bridge World Standard - a system based on the preferred methods of leading experts. It's definitely the most popular use of the bid.

https://www.bridgewo...system.html#IVG

Quote

G. After Our Major-Suit Opening..

(f) a jump-shift to three of an underranking suit is invitational


Edit - and no, Cohen plays it as invitational by an unpassed hand too.

https://www.larryco....openings-part-1

Quote

One of the best parts of LC Standard is the jump to 3-of-a-lower suit. I've had great success using these responses for the otherwise-hard-to-show invitational hands. Such jumps show a 6+ card suit and not quite enough for a 2/1 GF.

Feel free to send me a friend challenge of any format as often as you like. I'll always accept :)
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#9 User is offline   zhasbeen 

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Posted 2019-August-19, 19:32

View Postsmerriman, on 2019-August-19, 18:50, said:

As I mentioned in the other thread, it's part of Bridge World Standard - a system based on the preferred methods of leading experts. It's definitely the most popular use of the bid.

https://www.bridgewo...system.html#IVG


Wow, anyone who decides to play BWS had better be ready for some serious study. I played a simpler version many years ago, but don't remember those jump shifts being included. Does what I just read (I should say skimmed) translate to "any hand with 9-11 hcp and a 6-card minor" qualifies for jump shift response to partner's major?

To go back to middle hand, board 3, the Jx of trump and a stiff heart is what tilted me away from the jump. I'm not saying anyone who likes the jump is wrong. It's just that as the one opening the major I would have no idea what to do after one of those jump shifts. Does he have a stiff in my suit and a stronger minor, a hand like board 3, or something in between?
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