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Do you alert cue bids (Michaels, UCB etc)

#21 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-July-27, 09:29

View PostVampyr, on 2019-July-27, 09:05, said:

How is this possible? Have the Laws of Bridge not been translated into Italian? I wonder why the WBF allows members which play some other game instead of bridge.


I seem to remember reading that psyches were once banned in other RAs too, and I assure you that when playing without psyches it still feels much like bridge. I think the WBF tolerates decidedly more important deviations than this from RAs, even if less direct in law terms. But I hope and am sure that Italy will get into line on club level psyches sooner or later.
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#22 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-July-27, 09:52

View Postbarmar, on 2019-July-26, 19:02, said:

What would you prefer instead? Go back to the old days where the same "Alert" language was used for both unusual agreements and near-universal agreements like Stayman and Jacoby Transfers?

My own preference would be for clearly formalised announcements for a few very common conventional bids, such as "Asks for majors, does not promise a major or strength" , "Shows hearts", "Shows spades and a minor, at least 4-5". But I could live with going back to the old days. I think either is better than the current ACBL Alert chart.
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#23 User is offline   jeffford76 

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Posted 2019-August-01, 17:45

View Postbarmar, on 2019-July-26, 18:57, said:

It took a couple of years for the new convention charts, I'd expect it to take at least a year for the new alert procedure.

My expectation is that they're not really going to change the spirit, just make the document more precise -- the current alert procedure is very vague in many places. Maybe something in the style of the Blue Book.


I think it actually took more than a couple. :)

There is a committee working on the new alert rules - I am chairing it. As you suspect, the main goal is not to make major changes, but rather to make the rules more clear, and to make rulings more predictable. It's still too early for me to have any estimate of when a draft might be finished. I'm sure we will provide it for comments once we have it as we did with the new convention charts.
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#24 User is offline   sanst 

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Posted 2019-August-02, 01:27

View Postbarmar, on 2019-July-26, 19:02, said:

What would you prefer instead? Go back to the old days where the same "Alert" language was used for both unusual agreements and near-universal agreements like Stayman and Jacoby Transfers?

In ACBL we don't even alert Stayman (any form) if it's a non-jump club bid immediately over NT.

That’s about the situation in Holland. The regulations are based on the WBF Alerting Policy and there’s no announcing. All conventional bids should be alerted, including Stayman and Jacoby Transfers, but also all calls with an unexpected meaning. The strange result is that 1NT - 2// should always be alerted.
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#25 User is offline   weejonnie 

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Posted 2019-August-02, 04:06

Had a case on Sunday where the 2 response was announced as Stayman and I was called because the opponent thought that Stayman promised a 4-card major (promissory) whereas the person who bid it hadn't a 4-card major at all. (They didn't ask).

More interesting is the fact that the 1NT bidder thought that they played promissory Stayman, but the Stayman bidder thought they didn't (or forgot - as he plays non-promissory with other partners). Had there been a requirement to state "Promissory Stayman" or "Non Promissory Stayman", I would have had more work to do than just quote from the Blue Book)
No matter how well you know the laws, there is always something that you'll forget. That is why we have a book.
Get the facts. No matter what people say, get the facts from both sides BEFORE you make a ruling or leave the table.
Remember - just because a TD is called for one possible infraction, it does not mean that there are no others.
In a judgement case - always refer to other TDs and discuss the situation until they agree your decision is correct.
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#26 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-August-02, 05:02

View Postpescetom, on 2019-July-27, 09:29, said:

I seem to remember reading that psyches were once banned in other RAs too, and I assure you that when playing without psyches it still feels much like bridge. I think the WBF tolerates decidedly more important deviations than this from RAs, even if less direct in law terms. But I hope and am sure that Italy will get into line on club level psyches sooner or later.


I believe that the ACBL ban some psyches, so they are also playing a non-bridge trick-taking game.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#27 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-August-02, 05:06

View Postpescetom, on 2019-July-27, 09:52, said:

My own preference would be for clearly formalised announcements for a few very common conventional bids, such as "Asks for majors, does not promise a major or strength" , "Shows hearts", "Shows spades and a minor, at least 4-5". But I could live with going back to the old days. I think either is better than the current ACBL Alert chart.


The trouble with the old days is that Stayman was alerted along with other non-Stayman 2 bids. Major-suit transfers similar. But these other treatments are rare, so it wouldn’t occur to people to ask, when they might benefit from knowing; if not in the auction, in the play.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#28 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-August-02, 07:33

View Postweejonnie, on 2019-August-02, 04:06, said:

Had a case on Sunday where the 2 response was announced as Stayman and I was called because the opponent thought that Stayman promised a 4-card major (promissory) whereas the person who bid it hadn't a 4-card major at all. (They didn't ask).

More interesting is the fact that the 1NT bidder thought that they played promissory Stayman, but the Stayman bidder thought they didn't (or forgot - as he plays non-promissory with other partners). Had there been a requirement to state "Promissory Stayman" or "Non Promissory Stayman", I would have had more work to do than just quote from the Blue Book)

This is the first year of announcements in Italy and one thing that is not working well is Stayman. Use of name aside, the intention of the RA is that the announcement indicates non-promissory, whereas almost everyone plays promissory, so really should be alerting instead. Also there is an announcement for Puppet Stayman, but no definition of what that promises or means. Last but not least, it seems one can not announce Stayman or transfers when 1nt was bid in interference rather than as an opening, even if Systems On is the written agreement. Hopefully we will clear all this up in a review before next year.
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#29 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-August-02, 09:03

View PostVampyr, on 2019-August-02, 05:02, said:

I believe that the ACBL ban some psyches, so they are also playing a non-bridge trick-taking game.

Law 40B2(a)(v) permits an RA to restrict the use of psychic artificial calls. All of ACBL's psychic prohibitions are artificial.

That clause was added in the 2007 version of the Laws. Prior to that ACBL prohibited psyching strong, artificial openings, which was not legal; rather than getting ACBL to change, they changed the Law to allow it.

#30 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-August-02, 09:40

View Postbarmar, on 2019-August-02, 09:03, said:

Law 40B2(a)(v) permits an RA to restrict the use of psychic artificial calls. All of ACBL's psychic prohibitions are artificial.

That clause was added in the 2007 version of the Laws. Prior to that ACBL prohibited psyching strong, artificial openings, which was not legal; rather than getting ACBL to change, they changed the Law to allow it.


So that's how it happened - I always thought that allowance was incoherent. Something similar to the exception granted to Multicolor in the WBF Brown Sticker definition. Of course it wasn't ACBL that wanted that, and that may be an excuse for them deciding to impose their own definition of Destructive Methods (which ironically enough seems more liberal than Brown Sticker).
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#31 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-August-02, 15:27

View Postjeffford76, on 2019-August-01, 17:45, said:

There is a committee working on the new alert rules - I am chairing it. As you suspect, the main goal is not to make major changes, but rather to make the rules more clear, and to make rulings more predictable. It's still too early for me to have any estimate of when a draft might be finished. I'm sure we will provide it for comments once we have it as we did with the new convention charts.


Best of luck, please keep us informed.
On bridgewinners I just read the following surreal quote, which I think indicates some rethinking is necessary :

"I don't want to win by violating the rules, but the only alerted meaning of 2♦ here is a genuine offer to play in diamonds. I have been told and confirmed again and again that Bailey isn't an alertable convention (as much as some people would like to make it one). You are free to question the wisdom of the alert procedure (and you are sometimes even in a position to change it). I am not.

If I alert the 2♦ bid, opponents have every right to assume that the bid shows long diamonds. That WOULD be quite misleading."

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#32 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-August-02, 19:25

View Postbarmar, on 2019-August-02, 09:03, said:

Law 40B2(a)(v) permits an RA to restrict the use of psychic artificial calls. All of ACBL's psychic prohibitions are artificial.

That clause was added in the 2007 version of the Laws. Prior to that ACBL prohibited psyching strong, artificial openings, which was not legal; rather than getting ACBL to change, they changed the Law to allow it.


Why does this always happen?
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#33 User is offline   weejonnie 

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Posted 2019-August-03, 01:13

View Postpescetom, on 2019-August-02, 07:33, said:

This is the first year of announcements in Italy and one thing that is not working well is Stayman. Use of name aside, the intention of the RA is that the announcement indicates non-promissory, whereas almost everyone plays promissory, so really should be alerting instead. Also there is an announcement for Puppet Stayman, but no definition of what that promises or means. Last but not least, it seems one can not announce Stayman or transfers when 1nt was bid in interference rather than as an opening, even if Systems On is the written agreement. Hopefully we will clear all this up in a review before next year.

Yep - we don't announce in a competitive auction either. In fact in the EBU very few bids are announceable.

  • Only bids are announceable.
  • Only announce your partner's bids, not your own
  • It is only your first bid that might be announceable.
  • Once both sides have made a 'non-pass' no bids are announceable

No matter how well you know the laws, there is always something that you'll forget. That is why we have a book.
Get the facts. No matter what people say, get the facts from both sides BEFORE you make a ruling or leave the table.
Remember - just because a TD is called for one possible infraction, it does not mean that there are no others.
In a judgement case - always refer to other TDs and discuss the situation until they agree your decision is correct.
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#34 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2019-August-03, 10:22

View PostVampyr, on 2019-August-02, 19:25, said:

Why does this always happen?

Steph, where does a 500 pound canary sit?
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#35 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-August-03, 22:33

View Postblackshoe, on 2019-August-03, 10:22, said:

Steph, where does a 500 pound canary sit?


Yes, quite. And so the rest of us must live in fear wondering what the ACBL will come up with next.

I honestly don’t understand about the “having none” thing, because The ACBL already had it as an election. So why did they need the rest of the world to do as they did? Luckily, it has not caught on here; well it has a bit, but not to the extent that I have sometimes seen it when playing in America. Of course, if you don’t ask about every suit on every hand (or never) you are passing UI. I think all we can really do is hope that this doesn’t matter too often.

I do hope that the ACBL do not manage to change the lawbook enough that the only way to instruct dummy to follow suit is to say “play”. Luckily, this has not caught on at all here, and I will probably quit the game if it ever does. Because it drives me spare.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#36 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2019-August-04, 15:23

View PostVampyr, on 2019-August-03, 22:33, said:

I do hope that the ACBL do not manage to change the lawbook enough that the only way to instruct dummy to follow suit is to say “play”. Luckily, this has not caught on at all here, and I will probably quit the game if it ever does. Because it drives me spare.

I understand. I feel the same way. I argued for a while that "play" is equivalent to "play anything", but I got nowhere, so I gave up. Law 46A is very simple. If players would just follow it, there would be a lot fewer problems at the table — and no need for Law 46B.

Come to think of it, the evolution of "play" as an instruction, at least around here, is a prime example of how people are like sheep. We have a pretty good player here who went off to Florida one winter. When he came back he brought "play" with him, and soon after "everybody" was doing it. :(
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#37 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-August-04, 15:57

View Postblackshoe, on 2019-August-04, 15:23, said:

I understand. I feel the same way. I argued for a while that "play" is equivalent to "play anything", but I got nowhere, so I gave up. Law 46A is very simple. If players would just follow it, there would be a lot fewer problems at the table — and no need for Law 46B.

Come to think of it, the evolution of "play" as an instruction, at least around here, is a prime example of how people are like sheep. We have a pretty good player here who went off to Florida one winter. When he came back he brought "play" with him, and soon after "everybody" was doing it. :(


Yeses, I think that “play”means play anything.

I have an American friend whom I broke out of the habit, at least when playing with me, whenever he said “play” I would ask, “which one”. It was very effective. Anyway, maybe “play” will fall out of vogue. If everyone is doing it, then it is no longer too cool for words.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#38 User is offline   jeffford76 

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Posted 2019-August-12, 16:52

I don’t understand getting worked up about “play”. No one using it thinks it means “play anything”. It is shorthand for “follow suit with your lowest card”.
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#39 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2019-August-12, 17:51

If you say so.
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#40 User is offline   jeffford76 

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Posted 2019-August-12, 19:47

View Postblackshoe, on 2019-August-12, 17:51, said:

If you say so.


Are you seriously going to argue that someone saying “play” doesn’t mean that?
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