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STOP card used out of turn

#21 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 10:37

View PostVampyr, on 2019-April-20, 07:14, said:

This burden is what Pran has written about in several posts, and I am surprised you don’t see the problem. Why should a dozy opponent even be required to notice that a skip bud has been made? In fact I believe that if no Stop card is used (or is prematurely withdrawn) you should be allowed to take as long or short as you like. Better players will hold the card for 10 seconds, and will not bid before the card is put away, I am not as concerned with what weak players do.

Anyway, I was under the impression that it was in Norway that the Stop card is us d for any bid in a competitive auction at the three level or higher. It must be somewhere else, but I thoroughly approve.

And I do think that Norway Plus could work.

Extract from the Norwegian regulations:

STOP is used to give opponents 10 seconds compulsory pause for thought after a call that must be expected to raise the need for consideration.

A STOP-pause begins after possible questions about the auction have been answered. The pause shall last approximately 10 seconds and it is the player who faced the STOP card (or said "stop") that marks the end of the pause.

STOP shall be announced:
- with opening bids at the two-level or higher
- with any skip bid
- with any call except pass in competitive auctions from the three-level and up

Competitive auction can be expected when both sides have made a call other than pass at the two-level
- if one side does not call other than pass at the three-level or during a complete round of the auction the stop procedure is discontinued thereafter during the auction.
- if that side resumes calling other than pass the stop procedure is resumed.


A possibly interesting addition to the regulation is that Declarer is supposed to take a 10 seconds break after Dummy faces his hand before playing from Dummy to trick 1.
If he plays faster then his RHO is still entitled to 10 seconds before playing to this trick. (STOP is not announced in this situation.)
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#22 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 17:46

View Postpran, on 2019-April-20, 00:58, said:

Precisely. And that placed an unnecessary burden on LHO who has far more important matters to consider than measuring time.

If LHO actually has something to think about, he'll use the required time for his thinking. He doesn't need to measure the time. It's not like it has to be exactly 10 seconds, since no one is holding a stop-watch to him.

If he doesn't have anything to think about, it shouldn't be hard for him to measure the time while pretending to think.

In my experience, players never take the full 10 seconds. Most players don't pause at all (and they didn't when STOP cards were used, either); the ones who do just pause for about 4-5 seconds I think. This is long enough to be noticeably slower than normal tempo.

10 seconds is a really long time when nothing is happening. In a normal situation, you'd probably think that they didn't notice that it's their turn to bid.

#23 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 18:24

View Postbarmar, on 2019-April-20, 17:46, said:

If LHO actually has something to think about, he'll use the required time for his thinking. He doesn't need to measure the time. It's not like it has to be exactly 10 seconds, since no one is holding a stop-watch to him.

If he doesn't have anything to think about, it shouldn't be hard for him to measure the time while pretending to think.

In my experience, players never take the full 10 seconds. Most players don't pause at all (and they didn't when STOP cards were used, either); the ones who do just pause for about 4-5 seconds I think. This is long enough to be noticeably slower than normal tempo.


Obviously this would happen when the STOP procedure is incorrect. It seems to my as if the ACBL should have tried adopting the protocol used in the rest of the world before getting rid of the cards.
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#24 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2019-April-21, 00:53

View Postbarmar, on 2019-April-20, 17:46, said:

If LHO actually has something to think about, he'll use the required time for his thinking. He doesn't need to measure the time. It's not like it has to be exactly 10 seconds, since no one is holding a stop-watch to him.

If he doesn't have anything to think about, it shouldn't be hard for him to measure the time while pretending to think.

In my experience, players never take the full 10 seconds. Most players don't pause at all (and they didn't when STOP cards were used, either); the ones who do just pause for about 4-5 seconds I think. This is long enough to be noticeably slower than normal tempo.

10 seconds is a really long time when nothing is happening. In a normal situation, you'd probably think that they didn't notice that it's their turn to bid.

1: You will hardly ever see a player in Norway call while the STOP card is shown (or during the interval between "stop" and "continue" when spoken).
2: When the STOP procedure was introduced we had several posts in this forum about skip bidders who complained to the director because LHO didn't time the 10 seconds delay accurately.
That was when I began arguing that the skip bidder and not his LHO should be responsible for this timing (like it has always been in Norway).
3: LHO is required to observe the stop period whether or not he has anything to consider. That minimizes the risk for creating UI.
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#25 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2019-April-21, 10:31

View Postbarmar, on 2019-April-20, 17:46, said:

10 seconds is a really long time when nothing is happening.

That's the point, isn't it?
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#26 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2019-April-21, 10:46

View Postbarmar, on 2019-April-20, 17:46, said:

10 seconds is a really long time when nothing is happening. In a normal situation, you'd probably think that they didn't notice that it's their turn to bid.

View Postblackshoe, on 2019-April-21, 10:31, said:

That's the point, isn't it?

I don't think so.
Nobody here really bothers whether the STOP pause is ended after maybe only 5, possibly 8 or even 10 seconds.

The point is that the skip bidder should dictate a pause sufficiently long to avoid any UI being revealed by the time LHO needs to decide his call.
For the same reason it is the skip bidder and not his LHO who controls the timing.

Our experience with STOP is utterly positive.
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#27 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2019-April-21, 18:01

The point is why should the skip bidder get to decide how long is long enough if the regulation says 10 seconds. It seems to me that if "most people" think 5 seconds is plenty, the regulation should be changed.
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#28 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-April-21, 18:45

View Postblackshoe, on 2019-April-21, 18:01, said:

The point is why should the skip bidder get to decide how long is long enough if the regulation says 10 seconds. It seems to me that if "most people" think 5 seconds is plenty, the regulation should be changed.


You can sing a song in your head to count 10 seconds. For example, if you sing When Iím 64 you will get to 10 seconds after the word ďValentineĒ.

LOL donít be jealous that every other country has a sensible STOP procedure, as opposed to none, and that it works very well everywhere.
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#29 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-April-21, 18:47

View Postbarmar, on 2019-April-20, 17:46, said:


10 seconds is a really long time when nothing is happening. In a normal situation, you'd probably think that they didn't notice that it's their turn to bid.


Or that they DID notice that the STOP card is still being displayed.
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#30 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-April-22, 02:21

View PostVampyr, on 2019-April-21, 18:45, said:


LOL donít be jealous that every other country has a sensible STOP procedure, as opposed to none, and that it works very well everywhere.

I think that is an overbid. Italy still has the STOP card but it works pretty poorly here, like most rules that aren't strictly enforced and or of glaringly obvious necessity. Norway is clearly more disciplined and aware, I suspect most countries will be somewhere inbetween.
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#31 User is offline   weejonnie 

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Posted 2019-April-22, 04:01

View Postblackshoe, on 2019-April-21, 18:01, said:

The point is why should the skip bidder get to decide how long is long enough if the regulation says 10 seconds. It seems to me that if "most people" think 5 seconds is plenty, the regulation should be changed.

5 seconds IS plenty - provided you have nothing to think about. It is when you DO have something to think about that you need more time.

However 10 seconds is arbitrary. I usually find that if I need time then I need more than 10 seconds. I think one of the main advantages of the STOP card is that it stops 'insta-calls' i.e. the ones where someone thinks their call is obvious. e.g. 1 - 3 - 3 (at SPEOL). The main advantage, however, is that it stops players making insufficient bids because they have mentally worked out the bid they are going to make and then make it automatically.
The hardest director decisions inevitably are caused by the first failure to call at the appropriate time.
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#32 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2019-April-22, 04:19

View Postweejonnie, on 2019-April-22, 04:01, said:

5 seconds IS plenty - provided you have nothing to think about. It is when you DO have something to think about that you need more time.

However 10 seconds is arbitrary. I usually find that if I need time then I need more than 10 seconds. I think one of the main advantages of the STOP card is that it stops 'insta-calls' i.e. the ones where someone thinks their call is obvious. e.g. 1 - 3 - 3 (at SPEOL). The main advantage, however, is that it stops players making insufficient bids because they have mentally worked out the bid they are going to make and then make it automatically.

I suspect that when the Norwegian authority had to settle for a specific time they based their decision from some 50 years experience with bridge competitions.

Remember that a time limit like this must be set so high that very few players should ever need more time when deciding their call following a surprise call from RHO.
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#33 User is offline   axman 

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Posted 2019-April-22, 10:07

View Postbarmar, on 2019-April-20, 17:46, said:

If LHO actually has something to think about, he'll use the required time for his thinking. He doesn't need to measure the time. It's not like it has to be exactly 10 seconds, since no one is holding a stop-watch to him.

If he doesn't have anything to think about, it shouldn't be hard for him to measure the time while pretending to think.

In my experience, players never take the full 10 seconds. Most players don't pause at all (and they didn't when STOP cards were used, either); the ones who do just pause for about 4-5 seconds I think. This is long enough to be noticeably slower than normal tempo.

10 seconds is a really long time when nothing is happening. In a normal situation, you'd probably think that they didn't notice that it's their turn to bid.

I doubt that I am in your experience. I do not attempt to 'mentally' keep track of the length of my pause. I do aim for a 12 sec pause (my experience is that it has the effect of reducing dramatically the length of the pauses of the other three). Thus I am usually at least 10 sec and rarely as much as 15 sec. It can be said that my skip bid pause does not burden me while benefitting all the players.
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#34 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-April-22, 13:37

View Postblackshoe, on 2019-April-21, 10:31, said:

That's the point, isn't it?

I'm not sure.

If someone really has a hard decision, I think they'll take more than 10 seconds, and you can usually tell that they're stuck (they fidget, furrow their brow, etc.).

If someone doesn't have anything to think about, making them pause 10 seconds doesn't remove the UI, unless you think the fact that 10 seconds seems like an eternity allows it to be mistaken for the above tank.

You would be correct if they can usually decide what to do in less than 10 seconds. In that case, forcing them to take 10 seconds every time removes the UI. This assumes they're also able to mask the difference in mannerisms. I try to do things like tilt my head to give the impression of decision-making, but I'm sure it's an obvious fake; I have no idea what I do when I'm actually thinking, because I'm too busy thinking to monitor my behavior.

#35 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-April-22, 14:08

I know I'm partially to blame, but we should probably put a stop to this tangent.

Every thread that involves some irregularity in procedure related to the STOP card inevitably turns into a discussion of the merits of the STOP card and each country's regulations of it. It's always the same arguments, no new light is ever shone.

#36 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2019-April-23, 00:16

View Postbarmar, on 2019-April-22, 14:08, said:

I know I'm partially to blame, but we should probably put a stop to this tangent.

Every thread that involves some irregularity in procedure related to the STOP card inevitably turns into a discussion of the merits of the STOP card and each country's regulations of it. It's always the same arguments, no new light is ever shone.

If we had a ban on using the words "ACBL", "Norway" and "Stop" in any combination, this wouldn't happen.
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#37 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-April-23, 08:42

View Postgordontd, on 2019-April-23, 00:16, said:

If we had a ban on using the words "ACBL", "Norway" and "Stop" in any combination, this wouldn't happen.

I'll look into updating the censored word list :)

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